338: Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP) Subcommittee Full Hearing

Tonight's episode is made possible by listeners like you. Thank you so much for your continued support, Thank you for joining me, and welcome. I'm your host, Nick Ryan. On April twenty ninth, two thousand and thirteen, something amazing and unheard of took place. For five straight days. The National Press Club in Washington, d C. Hosted the Citizen Hearings on uaphoe disclosure. The hearing included eight committee members and over forty eyewitnesses that came forward to tell their stories and inform the public on a topic that most people refused to talk about. The Citizen Hearings was a groundbreaking event and in many ways was one of the most important conversations on the topic that has taken place in the last century, or perhaps in history. However, the most astonishing and perplexing aspect of the Citizen Hearings is that, even now, ten years after it took place, hardly anyone knows about it. I mentioned this because I began covering the Citizen Hearings in episode one sixty nine, and you can find a link to it in the show notes. I think you'll agree that the eyewitness reports are well worth your time and are directly connected to the main topic of tonight's episode. This past Wednesday, July twenty sixth, twenty twenty three, the GOP Committee on Oversight and Accountability held a hearing which focused on Unidentified anomalous phenomena also known as UAPs. The committee heard testimony from multiple eyewitnesses, including Ryan Graves, the executive director of Americans for Safe Rospace, Commander David Fraver, former Commanding Officer of the United States Navy, and David Grush, former National Reconnaissance Officer representative of the Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena Task Force with the Department of Defense. Many of you have not yet had the chance to watch the full two hour and fifteen minute hearing, so tonight I'll be playing yet in its entire day. I think you'll find the entire hearing quite interesting, and in future episodes, I'll be sharing my thoughts on the information brought forth, and I also look forward to hearing your opinions on the subject as well. I have also included a link in the show notes where you can watch the full video of the hearing. And without delaying any further, let's begin the subcommittee hearing on Unidentified anomalous phenomena or UAPs will come to order. Welcome everyone without objection. That Chair may declare a recess at any time. Additionally, without objection, the following members are waved onto the subcommittee for the purpose of participating in today's hearing. Mister Burchand of Tennessee, Miss Luna Florida, Mister Gets to Florida, Mister Burlison of Missouri, missus Ocazio Cortes in New York, and mister Oglis of Tennessee. Without objections, so ordered for today's subcommittee hearing. Both the Chair and ranking member will have ten minutes for opening remarks. We may both be giving some of those minutes to other members of our party. I'm now going to recognize myself for ten minutes. I'm actually going to try to get out of here at about four, and then we'll give it to some of my friends over here. Good morning, and welcome to the mostly exciting, the most exciting subcommittee in Congress this week, the Subcommittee on National Security of the Boarder in Foreign Affairs for discussion of Unidentified Anomalous phenomenon. I'd like to thank the brave military pilots and personnel such as such is the witnesses on the panel today for sharing their stories on how they've engaged UAPs, which has brought attention to this matter. Curiosity and speculation from all walks of life have generated interest in studying what UAPs are and what threats they may pose. I will say that when I was younger in school, I read a book, a nineteen sixty six book called Flying Saucers Serious Business, and for a while, when I was a little bit younger, I thought it was the most important issue out there, the lack of a transparency regarding uapse, which was one of the themes of that book. In any event, it's it's led interest in studying what UAPs are and what threats they pose. The lack of transparency regarding UAPs has fueled wild speculation and debate for decades, eroting public trust in the very institutions that are meant to serve and protect them, as is evidenced by the large number of people we have here. I also want to point out in nineteen sixty six, President Gerald Ford claimed to have seen a UFO. In in nineteen sixty nine in Georgia, Jimmy Carter claimed to have seen a UFO, so this has led Congress to establish entities to examine UAPs. The National Defense Authorization Act of twenty twenty two established the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office or a RO to conduct or to coordinate efforts across the Department Defense and other federal federal agencies to detect, identify, and investigate UAPs. However, aarro's budget remains classified, prohibiting meaningful oversight from Congress. In addition to a arrow's efforts, NASSAU is leading an independent study on UAPs to identify how UAP that is gathered from both civilian and government entities that can be analyzed to shed light on the topic. Despite these offices being established, their lives of pressing demand for government transparency and accountability that cannot be overlooked. And that's been a problem that's been around for fifty years. The Biden administration handling of the Chinese spy balloon that violated US space is one example how the government is not prepared for these The Biden administration's description of events has showed them that the government continues not to be forthright. Between the Chinese balloon being shot down and two UAPs subsequently shot down, following the event. Earlier this year, the US government spent one and a half million dollars in taxpayer dollars on missiles, yet we have seen little clarity from the Biden administration. We must demand transparency from the Department of Defense, our intelligence community, in our defense industry on the UAP work. We're going to ask some questions about that today. Congress recognizes the subject of UAPs is multifaceted and requires a careful, data driven approach. Today we'll see clarity from these witnesses testimonies. I will see clarity as to what can be done to improve reporting for military and civilians and remain committed to objective inquiry. Congress should work to ensure that knowledge is not driven by fear. Today we are not just debating the existence of UAPs. We are deliberating on the principles that define every public which is a commitment to transparency and accountability. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today about ways we can improve government efficiency and openness when it comes to UAPs. I thank each of you for your presence here today and for your dedication to safeguarding the interests of the American people. I look forward to your testimony. Now I'm going to turn it over for two and a half or three minutes to represent a burship from Tennessee. Thank you, miss chairman, Thank you all for being here. I want to thank everybody for making this happen today, and I want to remind everybody this is a nonpartisan issue that has nothing to do with party politics. I think the cover up goes a lot deeper than that. I also want to thank my colleagues represented Anapolina Luna sitting beside me here, Jared Moskowitz, my friend across the aisle, as an incredible mind, and I'm anxious to hear his questions. My buddy Eric Burlison, and it's not at my notes here, but Matt Gates. If it hadn't been for Matt Gates, myself, him and Luna would still be down at Eckland Air Force Base trying to get some answers. He's got an incredible legal mind. Also, I know I saw it in the crowd there, George's Knapp, my buddy Jeremy Corbell. They're not witnesses, but they've provided some statements on this subject, and I seek unanimous consent to enter those statements into the record. Mister Chairman, without objection, also would like to enter in. I understand now that this is unclassified its public record, but as we all know, that's sometimes difficult for the public to get a hold of a report, defense intelligence reference documents, advanced space propulsion based on vacuum, spacetime metric engineering, some lighting for some of our members, a lout objection. Thank you, you know, mister Knapp wrote, since nineteen sixty nine, the position our military has been that UFOs posed no threat to national security and are not worthy of further study. I'd say that's the biggest understatement of the decade. And he also goes on to talk about the dismissive attitude and said odds with what was revealed in documents, reports and internal memos. And mister Cabell says, as he writes these words, the UFO is emerging as a major topic of global importance. I can state that as a fact out there, I met a fellow who came in there all the way from Denmark to be here for this meeting. So this is huge. This is worldwide. I think we suspect what's going on. But I'd also like to thank the members of Congress who have supported our efforts to make this hearing happen. Some of even compared it to me that they've had UFO sightings of their own. Those members, of course, some of them wish to remain anonymous, and I'll keep it that way. But also, finally, I have to think that these three brave witnesses here they took an oath. They took an oath to uphold the Constitution United States, and dad gum, they're doing it, and we owe them a dead a graded kid, y'all quit clapp and you're cutting it all my time, this kid, These folks, they've got nothing to gain from this, and I think you're going to find out that they've endured quite a few slings and arrows. We need to remember them in our prayers and their families, and I'm thankful them for their honest testimonies. They have done interviews and appeared in documentaries like Accidental Truth to get their stories out there, and now they are all here to testify under oath for Congress. It's been so difficult to get here today. I said, you know, in the Baptist Church, we'd say that the devil's in our way. And the devil has been in our way through this thing. We've we've run into roebox from members from the intelligence community of the Pentagon. I propose legislation to go in the fa reauthorization that just said, I if an airline pilot has a sighting that when he makes that report to the FAA, that it would come to Congress. But I was told that the intelligence community did not like that, and the bill was an The amendment was not even hurt in committee. I think it's time for this country to take back our country. We need to tell the folks at the Pentagon they work for us, Dad, we don't work for them. And that's exactly the point. This is an issue of government transparency. We can't trust a government that does not trust his people. We're not bringing little green men or flying saucers into the hearing. Sorry to disappoint about half y'all. We're just going to get to the facts. We're going to uncover the cover up. And I hope this is just the beginning of many more hearings and more people coming forward about this, and I yield back the remainder of my time. I think to representa luna, mister chairman or yeah, well call him as Lena for herscharge statement. The circumstances surrounding ups has captivated the intention of the American people for decades, ingrained in even the minds of our nation's leaders, from Jimmy Carter to Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton to Donald Trump, Marco Rubio to Chuck Schumer, John Radcliffe to National Security Council officials. Yet from Roswell, New Mexico to the coast of Jacksonville, Florida, the sidings of UAPs have rarely been explained by the people who have first hand accounts of these situations. This is largely due to the lack of transparency by our own government and the failure of our elected leaders to make good on their promises to release explanations and footage and mountains of overclassified documents that continue to be hidden from the American people. This isn't just how I feel. In fact, the American people largely believed that the government has actively covered up the truth about UAPs. One poll in particular found that sixty eight percent of Americans believe that the government is hiding information about UAPs and not being honest about what we know about them, and from my personal experience, I believe the same thing. Another poll found that nearly half Americans believe that the federal government is doing a very bad or somewhat bad job of dealing with reports of UFO sightings. As Representative Burchett just reference on the FA bill that just went through, you can tell that that's exactly happening. Considering the thousands of testimonies and videos taken on people's phones and eyewitnesses accounts made by credible witnesses such as doctors, pilots, scientists, and active duty service members, is unacceptable to continue to gaslight Americans into thinking that this is not happening, or that the potential of intelligence intelligent life forms exists other than humans. Even more alarming is the fact that these eyewitnesses are many of time service members and have no assurance that their lives will not be negatively impacted or even harmed by their experiences. In being an active duty service member working on an airfield, I've had conversations with many pilots where they were in fear of coming forward for retribution and or being taken off flight status. How do we know this because the government has said nothing to assure us otherwise. They have also did nothing to calm the concerns of over twenty percent of Americans who have reported to have seen UFOs or UAPs. We are simply told not to question the government and that the government has it under control. Today is the first hearing of it's kind where we will tempt to get down to the bottom of what is actually happening with UAPs. But we will hear from people who have had personal sightings rather than Pentagon bureaucrats who have always been sent to stonewaller investigations just so that the press knows and the people know. We were even denied access to a classified briefing in a skift prior to this hearing. Do the amount of hoops that we had to jump through to grant temporary clearance to witness Grush who has knowledge of classified information. It is time to have an open minded discussion on this topic, to hear the evidence and understand the magnitude of what this means, not just for our nation, but for humanity. Thank you, Chairman, I yell back the rest of my time. Thank you very much, and I'd like to thank you, thank you and mister Burchett for bringing this topic to my attention. Now we'll recognize National Security Subcommittee Ranking Member Garcia for ten minutes. Well, thank you, mister chairman, and I want to thank first our witnesses for joining us today. I want to begin by thanking you all for your service to our country and for sharing your voices today and your courage to be here as well, to mister Graves. Particularly grateful to you to spend some time that we had for you to share with Candor some of your experiences, so I appreciate that as well. I do want to thank all the members of our subcommittee today and also those that are here and have waved on for their incredible interests in this issue. It's particularly to Congressman Birdshot. I know that your leadership has brought us to this place today, and I want to thank you for that, as well as everyone else that's been engaged in this work. I also want to thank the Oversight staff, why I know has been working very hard to ensure that today's hearing is serious, that it's transparent, that it also provides appropriate answers as our oversight body always demands. Now, it's really important that we're here in a bipartisan way to have this conversation, which really, to the heart of it, is about national security and key to the subcommittee's core purpose. This is the Subcommittee on National Security of the Oversight Committee. Now, our witnesses will testify today that UAPs have posed a serious safety threat, and we must understand this more broadly. We're dealing with real questions. They get to the heart of our faith in government. Faith in our institutions, as we all know, is at an all time low. Partisanship and alternative facts make it too easy to doubt narrative our institutions. But this hearing will offer the public unique perspectives, building on years of reporting by both federal agencies and the independent media. Now, some of the earliest reporting on this issue was a groundbreaking twenty seventeen New York Times report which revealed research, as we know now on unidentified anomalist phenomena of many call UFOs by the Defense Intelligence Agency. Mister Grays and Commander for Ever's experiences with UAPs have also been documented by the public just by The New York Times, but CNN and many other national news outlets. Now the Office of the Director of National Intelligence has published public reports documenting UAPs and On June ninth, twenty two, NASA announced that the agency is commissioning a study to of course, examine unidentified anomalous phenomena. Now, the sheer number of reports WILSA blowers and stories of unidentified anomalis phenomena should raise real questions and warrant investigation and oversight. And that's why we are here today. Now. Pilots have reported encounters for years now. Because of the stigma around reporting these incidents, we still don't have a complete picture of actually what's going on, particularly as your witnesses will testify on the civilian side, and that is a real problem that we have today in the country. Now, it's very important that we show that Democrats and Republicans in Congress can come together in a bipartisan way to cut through misinformation and to look at the facts in a serious and thoughtful manner. If we are to advance oversight and public disclosure, we must also gain the broad support of the public. We will succeed getting facts out to the public faster if there is a broad public support as part of the process. Now, I understand fully the Department of Defense is hesitant to share information that could also undermine our national security by revealing information on the capabilities of our own aircraft, our sensors, and other sensitive material. At the same time, many people believe that we're withholding information from them, and that is dangerous. Also, I believe in openness and transparency. That is also the role of Congress, and I want to trust that the American people will be able to weigh the evidence and make up their own minds. Now, we have incidents word in censors, sometimes even multiple types of sensors detect things that we cannot explain. UAPs, whatever they may be, may pose a serious threat to our military or civilian aircraft, and that must be understood. Now. My career in training as a long time and career educator and teacher and researcher tell me that we should never rule anything out. We know that our space of course is asked and undiscovered. I also want to note that mister Sean Kirkpatrick, director of the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, the component of the DoD office that investigates UAP data, has testified before the Senate this year that his unit has found no evidence of extra extra real activity. NASA has also stated that they don't have evidence of extrass real life either. And we've heard this of course from some of our government agencies, and we should remind viewers and witnesses, which I think is really important, that we also cannot share classified information in public settings. But questions, of course remain that people want to see data and information for themselves. The enormous interest in the hearing today underscores the importance of a fair and open look at the evidence from witnesses who can share their unique perspectives. Now I know I certainly have a lot of questions, and I know that all the members of our committee do as well. We should come to this hearing with an open mind, and we should not let our existing ideas restrict us on either side. I hear over and over from many agencies a stigma around reporting and investigating up he's prevents us from getting real answers. We know that whistlebrowers have reported harassment, intimidation or stigma as well, and this is not acceptable. If people can't report incidents which would have national security or safety implications, then that also has serious consequences for us. As ranking member of this subcommittee, I know my job would be completely impossible if whistleblowers or others feel intimidated to come before this committee. We can't be afraid of asking questions, and we can't be afraid of the truth. I'm proud of state. That's just. Hearing builds upon bipartisan work by members of the House and Senate dating many years back, which is sought to increase awareness within the Department of Defense and more and to mandate more of Congress of UAPs. We know the Senator is taking up an amendment to their Defense Authorization Bill which will create a commission with broad declassification authority, and we can all agree that that is an important step. Members of both parties and senior officials and multiple administrations have taken an interest in this issue, and we're proud to carry and build that confidence in the American people. This hearing will also be the end of his discussion, but a new chapter and start to years and years of work that many folks, both both in the public and within government, have been working on. We should encourage more reporting, not less on UAPs. The more we understand, the safer we will be. We will here testimony from witnesses today with a long record of service to the American people and with subject matter expertise. Our witnesses have a unique opportunity to share the perspective, insights, and their experiences with the American people, and I encourage all of my colleagues to engage with these difficult questions with an open mind and to follow the facts on behalf of our country. I also just want to say more broadly that we should look at this hearing and believe that everything is on the table as it relates to UAPs. I think an open mind is absolutely the best I want to yield the two and a half minutes the remainder of my time to the representative from Florida, Representative Moskovitch for an opening statement. He also has been very much engaged in this issue, and I want to thank him for his leadership. Congressman, thank you, Ranking Member Garcia, thank you, mister Chairman. I want to thank Tim Burchett and Anna Paulina Luna for their leadership in pushing this hearing forward. I want to thank obviously Committee staff and their staff working on this on a bipartisan basis, because many Americans are deeply interested in this issue and it shouldn't take the potential of non human origin to bring us together. Additionally, I want to thank the witnesses for coming forward to share your perspectives, your thoughts, and the sightings of UAPs. Unlike other hearings many times in Congress, you're not here to help a political party, but you're here to share information with the American people. And it's not something that is just going on in this administration. It's something that's spanned many administrations for decades. Many Americans have been fascinated by objects mysterious and unexplained, and it's long past time that they got some answers. The American public has a right to learn about technologies of unknown origins, non human in eligence, and unexplainable phenomena. Those are not the words of a UFO Twitter account, though. That is a direct quote from Majority Leader Chuck Schumer that the American public has a right to learn about technologies of unknown origins, non human intelligence, and unexplainable phenomena. In an interview with Fox News, recent former Director of National Intelligence John Radcliffe confirmed the US government is aware a lot more sightings of UAPs and that they have not made that information public. I quote, there are a lot more sightings that have not been made public, Radcliffe said to Fox News. For me, this hearing is about transparency. We unfortunately live in a time in which many people distrust government and our institutions, and overclassification of information away from the American public or even Congress contributes to today's politics. The American people have regular questions, what are UAPs? How come the media doesn't report more on them? Are they foreign adversaries? Are the US technology? Are they something else? They ask themselves. How come when a Russian jet shoots flares at one of our drones? We have perfect pictures and videos to show the American people and the world, but when it comes to UAPs nothing. Of course, we must always protect our national security to maintain our superiority, like when stealth helicopters were only rumored to exist but were used in the Osama Bin lan and raid in two and eleven. But we can't allow that to be used as a shield to keep the American people completely in the dark from basic truths. The American people deserve to hear more about special access programs. Congress has a right to know if there's any unsanctioned weapons development satellite imagery that has not been provided to Congress. Congress created the All Domain Resolution Office in the NDAA of twenty twenty two. In its initial analysis, there are one hundred and seventy one uncharacterized UAP parts and this is the words from the report that appear to have demonstrated unusual flight characteristics or performance capabilities. I believe more information is known about one hundred and seventy one instances. It's time for Congress to reinsert ourselves. I call on our military leaders and intelligence officials to release more information to the American people about UAPs and to our military leaders. If there's nothing to conceal, let Congress go to write Patterson Air Force Space, the dug Way Proving Ground, or even Groomlake in Nevada. We should have disclosure today, We should have disclosure tomorrow. The time has come. Thank you, Recommember, Thank you, mister Moskowitch, and I would yield back now to our chairman. Thank you. Right now, I'd like to introduce our witnesses, our first witnesses. Lieutenant Ryan Graves is the executive director of Americans for Safe Aerospace. Lieutenant Graves is also a former US Navy F A teen pilot. Wouldn uapas experience. The next witness, David Grush, is a former senior intelligence officer with the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency and was a senior technical advisor for UAP issues. And finally, retired Navy Commanded Commander David Fraber, squadron leader who worked as a naval aviator for eighteen years. Mister Fraber has his own UAP experience, known as the TikTok event. I look forward to hearing from all three of you today. Pursuant to Committee Rule nine G, the witnesses will please stand and raise their right hands. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God, let the records show that all the witnesses answered in the affirmative. You may be seated. We appreciate you all being here today and look forward to your testimony. Or remind the witnesses that we have read your written statements and they will appear in full in the hearing record. Please try to limit your oral statements to five minutes. As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it's on and the members can hear you. When you begin to speak. The light in front of you will turn green. After four minutes it will turn yellow, and the red light when that comes on, it tells you your five minutes have expired. I'll now recognize mister Graves for five minutes for your opening statement. Thank you, Chairman Grothman, Ranking Member Garcia, Distinguished Members of the House Oversight Subcommittee on National Security, Representatives Burchett and Luna. My name is Ryan Fob's Graves, and I'm a former FA Team pilot with a decative service in the US Navy, including two deployments in Operation and During Freedom and Operation Inherent Resolve. I have experience advanced UAP firsthand, and I'm here to voice the concerns of more than thirty commercial aircrew and military veterans who have confided their similar encounters with me. Today, I would like to highlight three critical issues that demand our action as we convene here. UAP are in our space, but they are grossly underreported. These sightings are not rare or isolated. They are routine military aircrew and commercial pilots, trained observers whose lives depend on accurate Identification are frequently witnessing these phenomenon. The stigma attached to UAP is real and powerful and challenges national security. It silences commercial pilots who fear professional repercussions, discourages witnesses. It is only compounded by recent government claims questioning the credibility of eyewitness testimony. Parts of our government are aware of more about UAP than they let on, but excessive classification practices keep crucial information hidden. Since twenty twenty one, all UAP videos are classified as secret or above. This level of secrecy, not only impedes are understanding, but fuel speculation and mistrust. In twenty fourteen, I was an F eighteen foxtrot pilot in the Navy Fighter Attacks Squadron eleven, the Red Rippers, and I was stationed to nas Oceania in Virginia Beach after upgrades were made to our jets radar systems and detecting unknown objects operating in our airspace. At first we assumed they were radar errors, but soon we began to correlate the radar tracks with multiple onboard sensors, including infrared systems, eventually through visual ID. During a training mission in Mourning Area, Whisky seventy two, ten miles off the coast of Virginia Beach, two f eighteen super hornets were split by UAP. The object, described as a dark gray or a black cube inside of a clear sphere, came within fifty feet of the lead aircraft and was estimated to be five to fifteen feet in diameter. The mission commander terminated the flight immediately and returned base. Our squadrons submitted a safety port, but there was no official acknowledgment of the incident and no further mechanism to report the sightings. Soon, these encounters became so frequent the aircrew would discussed the risk of UAP as part of their regular pre flight briefs. Recognizing the need for action and answers, I founded Americans for Safe Aerospace. The organization has since become a heaven for UAP witnesses who were previously un spoken due to the absence of a safe intake process. More than thirty witnesses have come forward in almost five thousand Americans have joined us in the fight for a transparency as Safe Aerospace dot org. The majority of witnesses are commercial pilots at majority major airlines. Often they are veterans with decades of flying experience. Pilots are reporting up at altitudes that appear above them at forty thousand feet, potentially in low earth orbit or in the gray zone, blow the carbon line, making inexplainable maneuvers like right hand turns and retrograde orbits or jay hooks. Sometimes these reports are reoccurring with numerous recent sightings north of Hawaii and in the North Atlantic. Other veterans are also coming forward to us regarding UAP encounters in our airspace and oceans. The most compelling involved observations of UAP by multiple witnesses and sensor systems. I believe these accounts are only scratching the surface, and more will share their experiences once it is safe to do so. In closing, I recognize the skepticism surrounding this topic. If everyone can see the censor and video data eye witnessed our national conversation which change. I urged us to buddhisize stigma and addressed the security and safety issue this topic represents. If you APR foreign drones is an urgent national security problem, if it is something else is an issue for science. In either case, unidentified objects are concerned for flight safety. The American people deserve to know what is happening in our skies. It is long overdue. Thank you, mister Grush, Mister Chairman, ranking members, and Congressmen, thank you. I'm happy to be here. This is an important issue and I'm grateful for your time. My name is David Charles Grush. I was an intelligence officer for fourteen years in both in the US Air Force, both active duty, Air National Guard and Reserve, at the rank of major, and most recently from twenty twenty one to twenty twenty five or twenty twenty three, at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency n GA at the GS fifteen civilian level, which is the military equivalent of a full bird Colonel. I was my agency's co lead and Unidentified Anomalist Phenomena and Transmedium Object analysis, as well as reporting to the UAP Task Force UAPTF and eventually, once it was established, the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office AERO. I became a whistle blower through a PPD nineteen Urgent concern filing in May twenty twenty two with the Intelligence Community Inspector General following concerning reports from multiple esteemed and credentialed current and former military and intelligence community individuals that the US government is operating with secrecy above congressional oversight with regards to UAPs. My testimony is based on information I've been given by individuals with a long standing track record of legitimacy and service to this country, many of whom also have shared compelling evidence in the form of photography, official documentation, and classified oral testimony to myself and many my various colleagues. I have taken every step I can to collaborate this evidence over a period of four years while I was with the UAP Task Force, and do my due diligence on the individual sharing it. This is because of these steps I believe strongly in the importance of bringing this information before you. I am driven by a commitment of both to truth and transparency, rooted in our inherent duty to uphold the United States Constitution and protect the American people. I'm asking Congress to hold our government to the standard and thoroughly investigate these claims. But as I stand here under oath now, I am speaking to the facts as I've been told them in the US Air Force, in my National Reconnaissance Office NRO, reservis capellity I was a member of the UAP Task Force from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty one. I served at the Inro Operations Center on the Director's Briefing staff, which included the coordination of the Presidential Daily Brief and supporting variety of contingency operations which I was the Reserved Intelligence Division chief backup. In twenty nineteen, the UAP Task Force Director asked me to identify all special access programs and controlled access programs also known as SAPs and caps. We needed to satisfy our congressionally mandated mission and we were direct report at the time to the Depth SEC DEAF. At the time, due to my extensive executive level intelligence support duties, I was cleared to literally all relevant compartments and in a position of extreme trust both in my military and civilian capacities. I was informed in the course of my official duties of a multidecade a crash retrieval and reverse engineering program to which I was denied access to those additional read ons when I requested it. I made the decision based on the data I collected, to report this information to my superior superiors and multiple Inspectors General and in effect becoming a whistleblower. As you know, I've suffered retaliation for my decision, but I am hopeful that my actions will ultimately lead to a positive outcome of increased transparency. Thank you, and I'm happy to answer your questions. Thank you, Commander f. Fraver, Thank you, Thank you, mister Chairman, Carsman, counters women. I want to first thank you for the invitation to speak to the committee on the UAP topic. There's been in the news for the past six years and seems to be continuing to gain momentum. As you know, my name is David Fraver. I'm retired commander in the United States Navy. In two thousand and four, I was a commanding officer of Strike Fighter Squadron forty one, the world famous Black Aces if you're attached to carry airing eleven station on board the US Snimmits, and had begun a two month work up cycle off the coast of California. On this day, we were scheduled for a two V two aired air training with the USS Princeton as our control. When we launched off Knewits my wingman was joining up. We were told that the training was going to be suspended and we were doing. We're going to proceed with real world tasking. As we proceeded to the west, the air controller was counting down the range to an object that we were going to, and we were unaware of what we're going to see. When we arrived, the controller told us that these objects had been observed for over two weeks, coming down from over eighty thousand feet, rapidly descending to twenty thousand feet, hanging out for hours, and then going straight back up. For those don't realize about eighty thousand feet is space. We arrived at the location at approximately twenty thousand feet and the controller called merge plot, which means that our radar blip was now in the same resolution cell as the contact. As we looked around, we noticed that we saw some whitewater off our right side. It's important to note that the weather on this day was as close to perfect as you could ask where off the coast of San Diego. Clear skies, light winds, calm seas, no white caps from waves. So the white water stood out in a large blue ocean. All four of us because we were in f eighteen f so we had pilots and Wizzo in the back seat looked down a small, saw white tic tac object with a longitudinal access pointing north south and moving very abruptly over the water like a ping pong ball. There were no roadors, no road or wash, or any sign of visible control surfaces like wings. As we started clockwise towards the object, my Wizzle and I decided to go down and take a closer look, with the other aircraft staying and high covered to observe both us and the tic tac. We proceeded around the circle about ninety degrees from the start of our descent, and the objects suddenly shifted its longitudinal axis, aligned it with my aircraft, and began to climb. We continued down on another two hundred and seventy degrees nose low where the tik tak or we can two hundred and seventy degrees to, and we went nose low where the tiktak would have been. Our altitude at this point was about fifteen thousand feet in the tik tak was about twelve thousand. As we pulled nose onto the object, we then about a half mile of it. It rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared. Our wingmen roughly eight thousand feet above us lost contact. Also, we immediately turned back to see where the whitewater was at and it was gone also, So as you started to turn back towards the east, the controller came up and said, sir, you're not going to believe this, but that thing is at your cappoint roughly sixty miles away in less than a minute. You can calculate the speed. We returned to Emmits. We were taking off our gear. We were talking to one of my crews. It was getting ready launched. We mentioned it to him and they went out and luckily got the video that you see that ninety second video. What you don't see is the radar taped. It was never released and we don't know where it's at the act of jamming that the object put on an APG seventy three radar and I can get into modes later if you're interested. What is shocking to us is that the incident was never investigated. None of my crew were ever questioned, tapes were never taken, and after a couple of days it turned into a great story with friends. It wasn't until two thousand and nine until Jay Stratton had contacted me to investigate Unbuno Stall. He was part of the eight Tip program and the Pentagon led by lu Alsando, and there was an unofficial official report that came out that's now on the internet. Years later, I was contacted by the other pilot, Alex Dietrich, and asked if I'd been contact and I said no, but I'm willing to talk. I was contacted by mister Alzando and we talked for a short period of time and he said we'd be in contact. A few weeks after that, I was made aware that Lou had left the Pentagon in protest and joined forces with Tom DeLong, Chris mell and Steve Justice and others to form Two Stars Academy, an organization that pressed the issue with leading industry experts and US government officials. They worked with Leslie Keene who was present today, Ralph Blumenthal, and Helene Cooper to publish the articles and then New York Times twenty seventeen New York Times, and it removed the stigma on the topic of UFOs, which is why we're here today. Those articles opened the door for the government in public that cannot be closed. It has led to an interest from our elected officials who are not focused on little green men, but figuring out where these craft are, where are they from, the technology to they possess, how do they oper? It also led to the Whistleblower Protection Act in the In the AA, there are multi witnesses coming forward to say that have firsthand knowledge, and mister Grush has covered that. What concerns me is that there's no oversight from our elected officials on anything associated with our government processing or working on craft. Believe it not from this world. This issue is not a full public disclosure that could undermine national security, but it is about ensuring that our system of checks and balances works across all work done in the government using taxpair of funds. Relative to government programs, even unacknowledged wave programs, have some level of oversight by the appropriate committee members in the House and Senate, and this work that is said to be occurring from whistle blow er testimonies should not be exempt. In closing, I would like to say that the TikTok object we engage in two thousand and four was far superior to anything that we had on time, have today or looking to develop in the next ten years. If we in fact have programs that possessed this technology and needs to have oversight from those people that the citizens of this great country elected an office to represent what is best for the United States and best for the citizens. I thank you for your time. Thank you very much, Thank you very much. I know it's very difficult for all of you, all them asked to try to eliminate this issue. Calling myself first for some questions, I'm going to start with, mister Graves. Are your pilots are pilots that you interact with as part of your organization? Do you feel adequately trained and briefed on how to handle encounters with UAPs? No? Right now, military witnesses to UAP have limited options for reporting UAP. But more more concerning is that commercial aviation sector has not adapted to the lessons that the military has implemented. The Military Department Defense has stated that UAP represent a critical aviation safety risk. We have not seen that same that same language being used in the commercial markets. They are not acknowledging this risk. Okay, what steps do you think you have to be taken to improve a pilot's UAP reporting a military are commercial? Right now? We need a system where pilots can report without fear of losing their jobs. There's a fear that the stigma associated with this topic is going to lead to professional repercussions, either through management or perhaps through their yearly physical check. So having a secure system reducing the stigma and making this available, this information available through the public is going to reduce the concerns that aircrew have. Could you give me a little idea that the degree to which reports in the past are not made public right now? Well, I don't think there has been a proper reporting system to gather those reports and thus not report them. So to answer your question, I think there is a dearth of data due to the fact that the reporting has been limited up to this time. Could you tell me why you believe it's kind of to play the devil's advocate, a reason why some of this stuff should not be available in the public. There's certainly some national security concerns when we use our advanced sensors in our tactical jets to be able to identify these objects. Whoever, there's no reason that the objects themselves would be classified. I would be curious to see how the security classification guideline actually spells out the different nuances of how this topic is classified from the from the perspective of up not national security. I get you have to help on that. Assuming that there are reasons why not all this should be made public, this has been around for a long period of time. Can you think of can any of the three of you think of any reason why anything related to UAPs, say fifteen years and back, should not be immediately made public. I think one of it is acknowledging a vulnerability, both from a collection and I'll just say a counter measure perspective, So it's now we haven't cracked for many years, even say twenty years back. Is there any reason why, when you go back that far thing shouldn't be made public unless it shows a specific national security vulnerability as it relates to a weakness and particular defenses. Okay, mister Faber, the tic TAC incident that you and with that you were engaged occurred in two thousand or what kind of reporting took place after that incident? None. We had a standard debrief for the backseaters, went down to our carrier intel center and brief what had happened, and that was it. No one else talked to us and I was in the top twenty in the battle group. No one came that. Captain was aware, Adam was aware, nothing was done. Your commanding officers provide any sort of justification, No, because I was a commanding officer the squadron. So no, was this incident the only UAP event that you encoutered while you were a pilot? Yes, it was. Okay, this is for any one of you, based on based off of each of your experiences and observations, do you believe UAPs pose a potential threat to our national security? Yes? And here's why. The technology that we faced was far superior than anything that we had. And you could put that anywhere if you if you had one, you captured one, you reverse engineered it, you got it to work. You're talking something go into space, go someplace, drop down in a matter of seconds, do whatever it wants and leave and there's nothing we can do about it. Nothing, okay. The other well, I would also like to add from a commercial aviation and military aviation perspective, we deal with uncertainty in our operating space as a matter of our protection professional actions. Identifying friend from foe is very important to us, and so when we have unidentified targets, and we continue to ignore those due to a stigma or a fear of what it could be. That's an opening that our adversaries can take advantage of. What steps should be taking to better understand and respond to UAP encounters. In the interest of national security. There needs to be a location where this information is centralized for processing, and there needs to be a two way communication loop so the operators on the front end have a feedback and can get best practices on how to process information, what to do, and to ensure that they're reporting is being listened to. Right now, there's not a lot of back and forth, mister Gresh, and you're complaining to the intelligence community. Inspector you, inspector general. You claim that you believe information is being hidden. What kind of information do you think was hidden and do you think it should remain hidden? Yes, I can speak to that very briefly and unclassified manner. As you know, the preponderance of my complaint was classified to the intelligence communities, both material acquisition and exploitation activity also baselining the UAPs, but not sharing it with you know, intelligence professionals that are actually doing step briefs. The pilots that kind of information. Yeah, okay, thank you very much. Now, well, what mister Garcia, thank you again. Thank you all for your service and for testifying today. I want to just talk about the uapiss relates to what we're seeing in the pilot's interaction with UAPs, particularly mister Grays. One of the concerns that from members of this committee is this idea that pilots there's no system to actually report UAPs and the stigma around pilots and so can you can you just briefly you mentioned that there you working with thirty pilots right now they're had encounters with UAPs, but you've also believe, I'm discussed and know of many more pilots. This is just those that you're currently working with. Is that correct? Can you expand on that? Certainly? I'll break that down in two ways. First, when we were first experiencing these objects off the Eastern Seaboard in the twenty fourteen to twenty fifteen time period, anyone that had upgraded their radar systems, we're seeing these objects. So there was a large number of my colleagues that were detecting these objects off the Eastern Seaboard. They were further correlating that information with the other onboard centers and many of them also had their own eye sightings as well of these objects. Now, that was our personal, first, firsthand experience at the time. Since then, as I've engaged this topic, others have reached out to me that shared their experiences, both on the military side as well as a commercial aviation side. On the military aviation side, veterans that have recently got out have shared their stories and have expressed how the objects we were seeing in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen UH continued all the way to twenty nineteen, twenty twenty and beyond, and so it became a generational issue for naval aviators on the Eastern seaboard. This was something we're briefing to new students. This is something that was included in the notice to airmen to ensure that there was no UH accidents UM. And now with commercial aviators, they are reaching out because they're having somewhat similar experiences as our military brothers and sisters, but they do not have any reporting system that they can send this to. And let me just add to both to UM mister Fraber as well as mister gray's not having the system for for reporting. Um, would you both agree that it is harmful to not just our national security interests, but to understand this phenomenon of what's happening with you aps. I think it's it's us. It's actually it's a travesty that we don't have a system to correlate this and actually investigate. You know. So if you took the East coast, you know, there's there's there's coactial radars out there that monitor our air defense identification zone so to two hundred miles. They contract these, you know, so when you see them, they could actually go and pull that data and get maneuvering. And instead of just having the airplanes, there's other data sources out there. And I've talked to other government officials on this. So you need a centrally located repository that these reports go to. So if you just stuck it in DD, you wouldn't get anything out of the Intelligence Committee because they have a tendency not to talk. But if you had a central location where these reports would come in, not just military but also commercial aviation, because there's a lot of that going on, especially if you talk to anyone that flies from here to Hawaii over the Pacific, they see odd lights. So I think you need to develop something that allows you a central point to collect the data in order to investigate. Mister Graves, I would concurre with everything mister Fraber said. I'll continue to say that the commercial pilots that have reached out to me through Americans for Safe Aerospace are doing so because they don't feel there's another way for them to report the safety issue. And I think one of the clear outcomes of this hearing already is that there has to be a safe and transparent reporting process for pilots, both on the commercial side and the military side, to be able to report UAPs in a way that's also transparent but also understands the scope of our of our natural security interests and what may be classified or not. But I think there has to be some sort of system, and so that's something that I hope can be an outcome that this committee can work on. Uh. Is there anything else for just for the two of you, briefly beyond this reporting system, that you think that we can do with the government to encourage and facilitate more civilian reporting right now? Okay, great? Think this hearing is is going to share the American people that their government takes this topic seriously. And how and how about civilians it may not be pilots, What kind of process could be in place for civilians who are not pilots who may have UAP encounters. Do either of you have any suggestions that could facilitate that. My recommendations would make would be to make that a sense a sensor centric operation in order to make it as objective as possible, Okay, sir, mister Favorite, I agree with mister Graves on that. Okay, just just just briefly, I also just want to um note for particularly for the two pilots, and a question for mister Crush. One of the things that I found fascinating and our discussion mister Graves last night as well, is that you've both described UAPs and formations and the way they they they are observed in space or in our air and the way that they move is essentially ways in which current technology or aircraft that we know of are unable to actually function or move. And so will you just put the public record again once once again, just briefly either describe or note that aircraft are being witnessed, particularly by the thirty folks that you're working with, are essentially outside the scope of anything that we know of today in the technology we have today, mister Graves and mister Fraver. Yes, the objects that are being seen by commercial pilots are performing maneuvers that are unexplainable to due to our current understanding of our technology and our capabilities as a country. And that applies for the military as well. Yeah, I concur with that we have nothing that can stop in mid air and go the other direction, nor do we have anything that can, like in our situation, come down from space, hang out for three hours and go back up. Thank you my last question, and sometimes I know that you have also said some of these answers in the past. We're trying to get them on the public record as well, which is really important. Mister Gress. Finally, do you believe that our government is in possession of UAPs? Absolutely? Based on interviewing over forty witnesses over four years and where I know the exact locations, and those locations were provided to the Inspector General and some of which to the intelligence committees. I actually had the people with the firsthand knowledge provide a protective disclosure to the Inspector General. Thank you, and mister Chairman, I would just say that I think that these questions are important questions and I look forward to being involved in the process to get those answered. I know there'll be a lot of question from the committee members, so I yield back. Thank you. We'll go to mister Burchard himself. Thank you, mister chairman. Thank you, mister Garcia. I would like to have you on my legislation to do just that on the reporting, and we'll get together on that. Maybe you can be my co sponsor on that. That'd be really cool. Thank you for those great questions. Mister Graves. Again, i'd like to know, how do you know that these were not our aircraft? Some of the behaviors that we saw in a working area. We would see these objects being at zero point zero mock. That's zero air speed over certain pieces of the ground. So what that means, Just like a river if you throw a bobber and it's going to float downstream, these objects were staying completely stationary. In category four hurricane wins. These same objects would then accelerate to supersonic speeds one point one one point two mak and they would do so in very erratic and quick behaviors that we don't I don't have an explanation for. Okay, have you spoken to commercial and military pilots. They have seen these off of our East coast alf. Okay, mister Freiver, I noticed that U in the tic tac video. It's tik tak like the candy, not TikTok like the Chinese communist app. That's correct, Yes, sir, I just want to make that because my daughter corrected me on that and called me a boomer and say boomer, and I said, no, baby, it's tik tac like the candy. You're gonna have to just look it up. But now I would like it's I like to say today is a day of many First, it's a miracle that we're having this this meeting, and it's also a miracle that my wife has put up with me for nine years. Today today as my anniversary, so I want to tell my wife happy anniversary and that I'll love her very much. As she likes to say this, nine years have been the best two years of her life. So thank you, mister Favor. What what astonished you the most about the flight capabilities of these tik tac very briefly the performance absolute performance it was, and you're you're not aware of any other objects that anybody in the world has in this world that hads those capabilities. No, I think it's far beyond actually our material science that we currently possess. Are you aware of any other reconnaissance platforms that attract or record of the tic tax mandovers, maybe the nora ad system or any of the others. I am not. Okay, mister Grush, Thank you for being here, brother, Thank you all very much. Have you faced any retaliation or reprivals for any of your testimony or anything on these lines. Yeah. I have to be careful what I say in detail because there is an open whistle blow or reprisal investigation on my behalf, and I don't want to compromise that investigation by providing anything that may help provide somebody information. But it was very brutal and very unfortunate some of the tactics they use to hurt me, both professionally and personally. To be quite frank, yeah, it's very unfortunate. As they say, when you're open the target, that's when they do the most. By if iron at you. Do you have any personal knowledge that people have been harmed or injured in efforts to cover up or conceal these extraterrestrial technology. Yes, personally, anyone been murdered that you would think that you know of or have heard of. I guess I have to be careful asking that question. I directed people with that knowledge to the appropriate authorities. Maybe in a if we could get it get in a confidential area of skiff, we could talk about that. But unfortunately we were denied access to the skiff, and that's very unfortunate in this scenario, mister favor, you believe that you witnessed an additional object under the water. In relation to your encounter, I will say we did not see an object. There were something there to cause the white water, and when we turned around it was gun So there was something there had obviously moved. Okay it was. It was not the same object though that you you were looking at. Correct. No, we actually joked that the tic TAC was communicating with something when we came back and because of whitewater disappeared. We were in another instance, we're told about the capabilities of a jamming during viewing when there were some people chasing some of these objects. Did you were experience any of that jamming or interrupting your radar or weapons system? And my crew that launched after we landed experienced significant jamming to the APG seventy three radar, which was what we had on board, which is a mechanically scan very high end system prior to the APG seventy nine. And yes, it did pretty much everything you could do, range, velocity, aspect, and then it get the lock and the targeting pot is passive. That's where we're able to get the video on. I'm about to run out of time, but are you aware of any of our enemies that have that capability? No? Okay. I would also like to note for the record that like George Knapp breaking area fifty one, he's the reason I knew about that, and the reason I know about the tic TACs is is Leslie Kane from New York Times article. And I wouldencourage everybody to read debt. Thank you, mister Chairman, You'll back no time. Very good, mister Raskin, Thank you, mister chairman. Mister Graves, you reported UAP encounters during training flights, I think and have since come forward to warn the Pentagon that these encounters may be putting pilots at risk. My first question is you've identified these as taking place on the East Coast. Is it just on the East Coast where these encounters have been reported? No. Since the events initially occurred, I've learned that the objects have been detected essentially where all operations Navy operations are being conducted across the world, and that's from the Ultimate Anomaly Resolutions Office reporting. Can you describe your experience after you decide to come forward and go public with your experience? Certainly, like many others in twenty seventeen, I saw the New York Times article come out as well, and for me it was special because I recognized the voices on the video. I recognized the video itself. I had seen it when it was taken, I seen it when it was debriefed, and so that was kind of shook me because I realized that this problem was still ongoing, and so I reached out the colleagues back on the East Coast and realized that this was still a safety risk that they were dealing with, that they had essentially hit a wall with how they could move forward on this conversation. It was at that point when I decided to try to move the conversation forward myself. Are there common characteristics to the UAPs that have been cited by different pilots and can you describe what the convergence of descriptions is. Certainly we were primarily seeing dark gray or black cubes inside of a clear sphere. I'm sorry, dark gray or black cubes. Yes, inside of a clear sphere where the apex or tips of the cube we're touching the inside of that sphere. And that was primarily what was being reported when we were able to gain a visualtality of these objects. That occurred over almost eight years, and as far as I know, is still occurring. So I take it that you're arguing what we need is real transparency and a reporting system so we can get some clarity on what's going on out there, because there are many pilots in your situation, but we should have a way of developing a systematic inventory of all of such encounters. Is that right, Yes, and I think we need both transparency and the reporting. We have the reporting, but we need to make sure that information could be promulgated to commercial aviation as well as the rest of the populace. Mister Grush, what about you? What was your experience after you came forward. Well, it's only been in about two months or so, so I guess my experience has been overwhelming support from a former colleagues of Mind that have privately messaged me, and I do appreciate that. But I do have knowledge of active planned reprisal activity against myself and other colleagues, and it's very, very upsetting to me coming from where certain senior leadership at previous agencies I was associated with. And that's all I'll say publicly, but I can provide more details in a closed environment. Okay, Well, I hope you understand that there would be bipartisan rejection of any attempt to vilify, demonize, or engage in other reprisals against our witnesses and people who are telling the truth from their perspective. Yeah, there were certain colleagues of mine that were brutally administratively attacked, and you know, actually makes me very upset as a leader to see that happen to other coworkers and actually superiors of MIND of the last three years. How do you account for that response? That seems like a bizarre response. I called administrative terrorism. That's their their quiver, their tool in the tool box to silence people, especially you know, the career government service cares about their career, cares about their clearance, the reputation to climb the ladder, and when you threaten that float career path, a lot of people back off. But I'm here to represent those people. So, mister Favor, what about you? What has your experience been since you've come forward with your perspective on this. Actually, I've been treated very well. And the six people that were involved, myself included, all of them have or will be retiring from the military, Zopizo sixes and all my friends that are very senior three and four stars. I've talked to them. They they believe, they understand there's a problem. But now I've I was actually treated really well. And what is your general interpretation of these phenomena or what is your current thinking of trying to make sense of them? But I'll say, you know, I'm not like a UFO fanatic. It's it's not me. But i will tell you that what we saw with four sets of eyes over a five minute period, still there's nothing we have nothing close to it. It was it was amazing to see. I told my buddy I wanted to fly it, but yeah, it's just an incredible technology. All right, mister German, thank you very much. I'll go back to you. Thanks. I na miss Luna, mister grush In speaking to you yesterday. I just wanted to follow up on Representative Raskin's questions. In the last couple of years, have you had incidences that have caused you to be in fear for your life for addressing these issues? Yes, personally. I just want everyone to note that he's coming forward in fear of his life. To put in perspective if they were really not scared about this information coming out, why would someone be intimidated like that? To your knowledge, are nhis working with adversarial foreign governments in either technology exchange programs or back engineering programs. I don't have data on that. I'm not sure. Have you heard or you had people come forward to present that evidence, not that particular evidence that you just expoused. Okay. On the nineteenth of April, doctor Kirkpatrick, head of Arrow, had said that he did not find any evidence of UAPs. You also stated that you had in your interview that you had briefed him on information that you were uncovering but that he did not follow up with you. Were the items that you divulged to him into national security? Yes, him and I had a classified conversation in April twenty twenty two before he took over Arrow in the July twenty twenty two and I provided him some concerns I had. Do you know why he might not have fallen up with you? Unfortunately I cannot read his mind. U I wish he did. I was happy to give sage counsel to him on where to look when he took the helm of Arrow. Okay, and then my last question for you before I moved to mister Graves, is you received prior approval from the Defense Department to speak on certain issues correct correct through adoptser duty, prepublication and security review. And just want to remind the public they're just looking from a security perspective. These are my own personal views and opinions, not the departments. Okay. I'm asking that though mainly because I think that there are many people that would like to discredit you, So it does bring a certain amount of credibility to your testimony. I'm required by law to do that as a former intelligence officer or I go to jail for revealing classified information. Yeah, we don't want you to go to jail. My next question would actually be for mister Graves. Can you please explain to me in detail the event that occurred at VanderBurg Air Force Base. Certainly in the two thousand and three time frame, a large group of Boeing contractors, we're operating near one of the launch for sale it is at Fannerberg Air Force Base when they observed a very large hundred yard sided red square approached the base from the ocean and hover at low altitude over one of the launch facilities. This object remained for about forty five seconds or so before darting off over the mountains. There was a similar event within twenty four hours later in the evening. This was a morning event, I believe eight forty five in the morning. Later in the evening, post sunset, there were reports of other sightings on base, including some aggressive behaviors. These objects were approaching some of the security guards at rapid speeds before darting off. And this is information that was received through one of the witnesses that have approached me at Americans for Sayferospace. Was this documented in any official form, whether it was a police blotter. Yes, they had official documentation and records from the event that the witness held over the years. And I'm not going to ask you to do right now for time reasons, but you'd be able to catch what was when it's correct. And have you seen that before on any other equipment and door during your flight time? I have not seen what they've described. This object was estimated to be almost the size of the football field, and I have not seen anything personally in that large Okay. And then another question on follow up referencing the gimball video Go Fast incident, can you just clarify because to our understanding, the footage was actually cut off at a certain point, But what happens at the end of that video, just for those Americans specifically there that I wanted to know about the rest of that footage. Certainly there was some uncertainty or instability with the object. It seemed to rock a bit, and that's the last last I had seen of the video. Much of the data that I would recommend be analyzed would consist of radar data that would provide precise kinematics on the object, as well as the fleet of objects that were operating nearby. Okay, and follow up in regards to the reporting procedures that mister Garcia had addressed on as well as Representative Birchett with the FAA, to your understanding, pilots that are seeing this, commercial airline pilots are they receiving season assist letters from corporations for coming forward with information in regards to safety for potential airline passengers. I have been made privy to conversations with commercial aviators who have received seasons assist orders. So the American public should know that corporations are putting their own reputations on the basic not the line, but ahead of the safety of the American people. And I think would you agree with that statement? Appear so okay, I guess this would be my last. I'm out of time. I yield, I'll be back good mister mousk Woods, thank you, mister chairman. Gentlemen, let's talk about the laws of physics for a second. Mister Graves, in commander favor, I heard you talk about speed. When those objects broke the sound barrier, did they make a sonic boom? I was in a jet. You can't hear anything. It's kind of lowed in there. Yeah, you're not able to actually personally tell within the vehicle. Will say, the objects that we were seeing there were spherical, and they were observed up the mock too, which is a very non aerodynamic shape. What about G forces, let's talk about G forces of those vehicles. Could a human survive those G forces with known technology today? No? No, not for the acceleration rates that we observed. Okay, what about what they look like? How close did you get? Did you see a seam or a rivet or a section? And what I mean is obviously the jets you're flying have all those things? Did these objects have those? Do you want to go? Right? I didn't have. I didn't have the detail to be able to tell that. So we got within a half mile at tic Tac, which people say that's pretty far, but it's in airplanes that's actually relatively close. No, it was perfectly white, smooth, no windows, although when we did take the original Flear video that is out there, when you put it on a big screen, it actually had two little objects that came out of the bottom of it. But other than that, no, no windows, no seams, no nothing. Mister Garash as a result of your previous government work, you met with people with direct knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself of non human origin craft. Yes, I personally interviewed those individuals, mister Grush, as a result of your previous government work, have you met with people with direct knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself about ats advanced technologies that the US government has based on conventional advanced tech? I was brief to the preponderance of the Defense Departments, both Space and Aerospace, Compartment of Programs. Yeah, do you have knowledge or do you have reason to believe that there are programs in the advanced tech space that are unsanctioned? Yes, I do. Okay, And when you say that they're above congressional oversight, what do you mean? Complicated question? So there's you know, some I would call it abuse here, So congressional oversight of conventional special access programs. And I'll use Title ten or DOOD as an example. Right, So ten US Code Section one Night ten discusses congressional overset of SAPs discusses the depth SEC depth's ability to wave congressional reporting. However, the gang of AD is at least supposed to be notified. If you know a waved or wave bigoted an acknowledge SAP is created and that's a public law. Well, so that how does I mean? I don't want to cut you off, but how does a program like that get funded? I will give you generalities. I can get very specific in a close session. But a misappropriation of funds? And does that mean? Does that mean that there is money in the budget that is said to go to a program but it doesn't and it goes to something else? Yes? I have specific knowledge of that. Yep. Do you think US corporations are overcharging for certain tech they're selling to the US government and that additional money is going to programs? Correct? Through something called irad Okay, satellite imagery. Let's talk about satellite imagery. We have satellites all over the place, some that we're aware of and many that we're not aware of. Right, we're taking picture of everything at every point in second, mister Grush, are you aware? Do you have direct knowledge? We talk to people direct knowledge that there are satellite imagery of these events. That was one of my primary tasks at NGA, since we process, exploit, and disseminate that kind of information. I've seen multiple cases some of which to my understanding, and of course I left NG in April, so that's my information cut off date. But I personally reviewed both what we call overhead collection and from other strategic and tactical platforms that were I could not even explain prosaically. And I have a degree in physics, by the way, as well, and I had. I am aware that you guys have not seen these reports unfortunately, and I don't know why it is. Do you have direct knowledgy We would spoken people with direct knowledge that this imagery applies to crash sites crash crash imagery. I can't discuss that in an open session. Okay. Do you have any information that the US government is involved in a disinformation campaign to deny the existence of certain UAPs. I can't go beyond what I've already stated publicly in my News Nation interview because it touches other sensitivities. Okay, I'll yield the balance of my time back, Thank you, mister chairman. Before I continue, please consider showing your support by subscribing, sharing, and giving the podcast a positive review. If you'd like to support the show further, please visit me on Patreon, buy me a coffee, or PayPal, where you can make a donation or become a member for as little as a dollar a month. Benefits include ad free episodes and early access to select shows. And if you've had a paranormal experience, you can share it with me through email or voice message at share my evp dot com. You can also get involved by joining the forum, subscribing on YouTube, and following me on social media. All of my support and contact information can be found in the show notes. With that being said, I'll be right back after this brief message, missus Fox. Thank you, mister chairman. I thank our witnesses for being here today. Mister Grush, in your s foreign testimony, you state that the United States government has retrieved supposedly extra terrestrial spacecraft and other UAP related artifacts. You go so far as to state that the US is in possession of quote non human spacecraft end quote, and that some of these artifacts have circulated would defense contractors. Several other former military and intelligence officials have come forward with similar allegations, albeit in non public settings. However, doctor Sean Kirkpatrick, the director of a previously testified before Congress that there has been an i quote no credible evidence. Thus far of extraterrestrial activity or of quote off world technology brought to the attention of the office. To your knowledge, is that statement correct? It's not accurates. I believe doctor Kapatrick mentioned he had about thirty individuals that have come to ARROW thus far. A few of those individuals have also come to Arrow that I also interviewed. And I know what they provided Doctor Kpatrick in their team. Okay, I was able to evaluates. Okay, I need to go on sure, but my understand that his statement is accurate came from a direct quote, and this contradiction is a perfect example of why we need to inject transparency into our government. And for another example, look no further than the pitiful response to the Chinese Fi balloon debacle earlier this year. You may remember the mass confusion that ensued when the balloon was first spotted over Montana, four days after it first entered US airspace over Alaska. The Biden administration's initial inability to address the object grew into a continuous series of embarrassments. After news of the balloon reached the main mainstream media, we were assured that the balloon posed no threat to our security. However, after the balloon was allowed to transit the entire continental United States fighter jets were scrambled off the coast of South Carolina to shoot it down. This flip flopping and obfuscation caused needless confusion, fear, and panic across the country. It's my hope, mister Chairman, that this sort of confusion will not be repeated. We should investigate the extent to which elements of our government possess or do not possess, information that is of critical value to the American people. We owe it to the citizens of this nation to make sure that our government is transparent and accountable. We must make sure that our government provides answers, and Congress must do its duty to solicit those answers. With that, mister Chairman, I yield back, yeah, mister Frost, Thank you, mister Chairman. In twenty twenty two, NASA announced that it was commissioning an independent study team to examine UAP. The NASA team is comprised of scientists across different fields, as well as former astronauts and pilots. In May, the independent study Team held that its first public meeting, which included the perspectives from NASA senior leaders as well as perspectives from the Department of Defense and Intelligence agencies. The NASA study team is also expected to release its first report pretty soon, and I think it's safe to say that we all eagerly await its results. Mister Graves, how might NASA's research influence the commercial industry regarding safety and UAP. I think NASA has a big role to play as far as commercial aviation's safety, and it's one of their original charges as an organization. One of the recommendations that have been put forward is to utilize their existing aviation safety reporting system to serve as a short term fill and trusted platform for pilots that want to report on UAP. It also has built in analytics capability and is funded by Congress. Gotcha and also, mister Graves, are there any other industries that may be influenced by the NASA research on to UAPs? And if so, how so well? I think there is a large swath of commercial capabilities that could be brought to bear on this topic, from space based or ground based sensor systems that are available open source or through commercial marketplaces. And I think NASA's work as they work to identify and highlight specific parameters that can be found. We can take that information and promulgate this through the public sector so that we can have a more open conversation about what we're seeing. You know. In twenty twenty, the Department of Defense released several videos of UAPs, including mister Freyer's experience. US Navy pilots that recorded footage. In twenty twenty one, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence released up preliminary report on UAP events. NASA Administrator Bill Nelson stated that NASA would begin to investigate these events. In fact, I sit on Science, Space and Technology Committee, and when we were doing a hearing with the NASA Administrator, Bill Nelson, I asked, you know why NASA needed to be fully funded, and there are many great reasons, but one of them was actually had to do with UAPs. He actually mentioned, you know, is their life out there? I don't know. And so either way, these actions ultimately led NASA to assemble the independent study team that I mentioned earlier. Also in twenty twenty one, Harvard University stood up the Galileo Project to research and examine the origins of UAP. So it seems like both you know, from NASA and in the higher education community because of the work that y'all have done and people standing up. You know, I think we're seeing some of that stigma slowly going away. Mister Freyer, do you believe that military pilots feeling empowered to share their UAP experiences has directly impacted the scientific communities research goals on this topic. I would say yes. I would say that, you know, starting in twenty seventeen when it actually came out, it took that stigma away. I mean I've talked to multiple Senators who said, prior to that, if you'd mentioned UAP, you'd have been laughed off the hill, And now you were sitting here today for a public testimony on what's actually going on. You know, I'm hoping that this curve will be more of an exponential and we'll get more and more transparent to the level that we can Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I mean it's important. I couldn't imagine, you know, I'm not a pilot, but I used to fly gliders and soil air patrol huh yeah, I got yeah, pilot, yeah, and so either way, I mean I couldn't imagined, you know, being in the glider and seeing something and then not feeling like I had the agency to talk about it. Mister Graves, can you discuss the importance of seeking scientists to sit on your advisory board? Absolutely, I think ultimately this is going to be a scientific problem, and not only that, it's also an engineering problem. I've been working with the American History of Aeronautics and Astronautics to help them stand up a UAP integration committee to help integrate their engineering prowess into this problem. And so, yes, very much, I think this is engineering and scientific problem as much as a national security problem. And how might Congress help to facilitate partnerships between the scientific community and the UAP focus groups within government? Well, I think one of the things they can do is to have these types of hearings to communicate to the public that this is a topic of interest. I think that there is a pseudo market, if you will, of interested capabilities and talent that want to approach this topic, and we're seeing that start to grow now. So I think continued conversation, reduction of stigma is going to allow that to flourish and allow answers to help generate themselves. One hundred percent. Well, thank you all for being here. Thank you for your work. I think it's important that we keep our top scientific minds focused on this issue and look for ways to increase collaboration. Thank you so much. I yield back, mister Comer, Thank you, mister Chairman. Let me say, I want to thank you for having this hearing, and I want to thank mister Burchett, Miss Luna for leading this hearing. And with that I yield by five minutes to mister Burchett. Thank you, mister Chairman. I'm gonna directness. I believe that, mister Grush, But if any of you all feel like you need to jump in, just jump right in. We're good as a US government become aware of actual evidence of extraterrests who otherwise unexplained forms of intelligence, and if so, when do you think this first occurred. I'd like to use the term non human, I don't like to denote origin. Keeps the aperture open both scientifically certainly, like I've discussed publicly previously nineteen thirties. Okay, can you give me the names and titles the people with direct firsthand knowledge and access to some of this crash retrieval. Some of these crash retrieval programs and maybe which facilities military bases that would the recovered material would be in. And I know a lot of Congress talked about we're gonna go to Area fifty one and you know there's nothing there anymore anyway, it's just you know, and we move like a glacier and says we announce it. I'm sure the moving vans would pull up. But please, I can't discuss that publicly. But I did provide that information both to the Intel committees and the Inspector General, and we could get that in the skiff. If we were allowed to get in a skiff with you, would that'd be probably what you would think, sure if you had the appropriate accesses. Yeah, what special access programs cover this information? And how is it possible that they have evaded oversight for so long? I do know the name is. Once again, I can't discuss that publicly, and how they've evaded oversight in a close setting, I can tell you this specific tradecraft use, all right, When when do you think those programs began? And who authorized them? I do know a lot of that information, but that's something I can't discuss publicly because I want to jump in on any of this, you're more than welcome to what level of security clearance is required to fully access these programs or anybody who has And I say that because myself, representing Gates and represented lunar work, basically turned away at one point at Eglin. So please go right ahead. Certainly difference between member access and say somebody like me, but anybody who has a T S SCI clearance and meets the eligibility criteria the access a judicative authorities should be able to grant your access, Miss Burcham fial Yield. So just to be put a fine point on that, there's nothing that you're aware of that's above special Access program classification. It's a misnomer that there's anything actually above top secret. Executive Order thirteen five to twenty six delineates the classification levels, right, But I draw a point on that because we can have access to those programs, and so the notion that we're not being given that access sort of defies our typical muscle memory here in Congress. Thank you, miss rich I'll go back to you, thank you, mister Gates. Along those lines titled ten and you might not know this or not, but a titled ten and title fifty authorization as they seem to say they're inefficient. So who gets to decide this? In your in the past, it's a group of career senior executive officials. Okay, are the government officials do what both in and outs of government? And that's about as far as got you there, all right, Well, that's it leads to my next question, which private corporations are directly involved in this program? How much taxpayer money has been invested in these programs? To your knowledge? We know, we know we ought at the Pentagon every year and I've been here five years and they failed the dad gum thing. Every year. They lose over a billion dollars a year we think, And I've just told the Department Offense maybe sixty percent of their assets are unaccounted for, whatever the heck that means. In the public's sector, you go to jail for that kind of crap. So tell me. Yeah, I know, when I m I'm a dollar off of my DTS travel voucher, I get hammered. But it seems like it doesn't work the other If you sell over six if you sell over six hundred dollars worth of stuff on a bay, now you get a call from the RS. So please what corporations? Yeah, I don't know these specific metrics. Towards end of your question. The specific corporations I did provide to the committees in specific divisions, and I spent eleven and a half hours of both Intel committees. So okay, has there been any there has there been an active US government disinformation campaign to deny the existence of unidentified aerial phenomena? And if so, why I can't go beyond what I've already exposed publicly about that? What you said, Okay, I've been told to ask you what that what that is and how to get it in the record. Which what have you stated publicly in your interviews for the congressional record? Uh? Yeah, if you reference my News Nation interview and I talk about a multidecade you know, campaign to disenfranchise public interests basically when I'm going yeah, thank apologize, mis Chairman. I yield back negative twenty one seconds. Thank you Ocasio Cortez, Thank you, mister Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for coming here today. I do concur with the ranking member as well as several other members here on this committee, that this is a committee for whistle blowers and for the protection of whistle blowers as well. So we understand what you're putting on the table here, and we're putting on the line here, and we thank you for that. Mister Grush, you sat on the Unidentified Anomalist Phenomenon task Force created in the twenty twenty NDAA. Correct. Yes, there have been some things that have been mentioned here during this hearing that I wanted to pick up on. Mister Graves. You mentioned specifically during the answer to one of your questions, you named Boeing contractors being engaged in an incident regarding this red cube about a football football field wide. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about the interaction or mister Gresh, either of you, the interactions between defense contractor companies and any UAP related programs or activities. So I'll just say that the information about the contractor themselves were provided by a witness, and I have no particular detail in that relationship. Mister Gresh, the kind of general unclass wavetops. Certainly the contractors you know are the metal benders, so to speak, the ones actually doing specific performance on government contracts. Are they required to issue any disclosure regarding UAP sightings or do they engage in any reporting around this in terms of the contractors, not that I'm aware of, they do not. Okay, Now, when it comes to notification that you had mentioned about, I WRAP program I READ programs. We have seen defense contractors abuse their contracts before through this committee. I have seen it personally, and I have also seen the notification requirements to Congress abused. I am wondering one of the loopholes that we see in the law is that there is, at least from my vantage point, is that depending on what we're seeing, is that there are no actual definitions or requirements for notification. Are there? What methods of notification did you observe, Like when they say they notified Congress, how did they do that? Do you have insight into that? For certain I read activities, I can only think of one's conventional in nature. Sometimes they flow through certain out of say SAP programs that have cognizant authority over the Air Force or something, and those are congressionally reported compartments. But I read as literally internal to the contractors. So as long as it's money, either profits, private investment, accession, whatever they want to put a finer point on it. When there is a requirement for any agency or company to notify or any agency to notify Congress, do they contact the chairman of a committee? Do they get them on the phone? Specifically? Is this through an email to hypothetically a dead emailbox. A lot of it comes through what they call the PPR Periodic Program Review process if it's a you know, a SAP or controlled Access program equity, and then those go to the specific committees, whether it be the SAS task to see thank you, I apologize, I just my time is limited, mister Graves. One of your main concerns that the FAA currently does not have an official process to receive reports of UAP from pilots or others. Correct. Correct, and in your experience, what data should the ARROW program prioritize for potential collection? We have you know, location, date, time, but are there other specific activity characteristics that should be included in these reports? Certainly, I think that there's two categories that would be important. One would be kinematics and understanding the specifics of how the vehicle or objects are moving, and the second would be a more zoomed out approach of being able to look at origin and destination after before the incident, as well as getting a better contextual understanding of how these these objects are interacting with each other. Thank you now, because I only have a minute left, I apologize, we only have five minutes today. But for the record, if you were me, where would you look titles, programs, departments, regions, if you could just name anything, And I put that as an open question to the three of you, I'd be happy to give you that. In a close environment, I can tell you specifically. Thank you. I'm Commander Fever, I would say, and I've told people that you have to know where to look. They're not going to divulge it to you because the classification levels. But if you know where to look and who to talk to, which is exactly suggreshon point you, then you have Okay, mister Greeves, I was an operator, so I was defending on folks like mister Gross to do that homework. Okay, thank you very much. I look back to the chair mister Bigs. Thanks, thanks, mister chairman. I thank the witnesses for being here today. I'm over here. Thank you so much for being here. I want to get into specifics here and the reason I'm going to go this way is because you've talked a bit about what I would call misdirection by official US government with regard to UPS, right, and so I'm going to get to that in a second. But last week White House NSC spokesman John Kirby stated that UPS are having an impact on our training ranges and needs to be treated as a legitimate issue. Do you concur with the statements that's for each of you? Yes, yes, yes, Okay. Now having said that, I'm going to take you to specific instances around the Phoenix Valley because that's where I live. And in ninety seven we had the famous Phoenix light case. I don't know if any of you were familiar with that. There there were two things that went along with that, and the explanation was Military Training Range off Luke and the Berry Goldwater Range. Do you know anything different other than the official explanation of those lights only what's in the public vernacular about it. That was outside the scope of my duties. And if we wanted to just my question, along with my colleagu from New York, Mascazio Cortez, if we wanted to find out more about that, where would we go to find the files and who would we address? And you can tell me. We need to go to a skift, so you can tell us in a skift, I could potentially give you a vector on that that specific case. I'm not I mean, I'm familiar with it in terms of public but I give you a vector in closed environment. Yeah, that would be good, thank you. So, if it's true that UAPs are having an impact on training ranges, and this administration considers it to be a legitimate issue, what steps can Congress take to address training range impacts? And I say that having two very large training ranges in my state. And so we'll start with mister Graves and going down the panel. Some of the initial procedures have been implemented, such as within the United States Navy that have a range foul report that gathers information from pilots. I understand that a service wide reporting mechanism is still pending. However, that would be a great next step, not only for gathering information, but for showing the truth that is an acceptable topic and reducing the stigma. Okay, please, I'll of you continue. Yeah. As a recipient of a lot of those training range reports, sometimes we only get contextual kind of oral reporting. It'd be nice if they attached all sensor data and there's a system in place that can handle multiple classifications of data. And that's an issue with the F thirty five, right, That jet was never built to be an ISSR platform, and it's a pain in the will to say butts to get that data off. So yeah, great, thank you. Yeah, I would agree with the previous two being a user of those training ranges, that the data has to be out there. You have to acknowledge that you're seeing him, and then you have to collect the data. Right now, you get the report someone says I saw something, but no one collects the radar data to back it up and new research. Okay, do you believe that the twenty nineteen classification guidelines for UAP's interferes with the federal government's ability to be transparent with the American people? And do you think we need to be more transparent with the American people all of you. Yeah, I'll say yes to that. Yeah, I'm familiar with the at least the UAP Task Force twenty nineteen Security Classification Guide. I think it's fair. Um, I did actually help author that with the Oh you got you got a bias that, But I will say, what a lazy attitude about declassifying videos. I mean, I've seen some of the videos of the recent shootdown, and I saw no reason that couldn't have been released as long as they mask, you know, some data. The American people deserve to see that that imagery and full motion video. I would think, Well, in my opinion, I will say things are overclassified. I know for a fact the video or the pictures that came out in the twenty twenty twenty report that had the stuff off the East coast, they were taken with an iPhone off the East coast. The buddy of mine was one of the senior people there, and he said they were originally classified a t SSI. And my question him was, what's t SSCI about these They're an iPhone right literally off the vacapes. That's not TSSCI. So they're overclassified. And as soon as they do that, they go in a vault, and I knew I'll have to look for him. Yeah. So with the overclassification, that may be one way, or there are other ways that the DoD or intelligence agencies are keeping this information from the American people, or even from Congress. I think part of that has been, uh, not encouraging reporting. If the problem is not something that can be measured, it's not something that's going to be fixed. Okay, very good, But I'm out of time, and I thank you, miss chairman, and now you'll bet. First of all, without objection, Representative Nick Langworthy of New York has waved down the Subcommittee for purpose of questioning witnesses. Is today's subcommittee hearing. And then we go to mister Burlson. Thank you, miss chairman. UM, I appreciate you guys coming out today testifying. Look, I've been here for six months and I'm pretty skeptical. I don't trust anything in this town and and so I and I think that's because I'm from Missouri. You've got to show me, right. UM. With that being said, UM, there's been a lot of things that have been said, um in the public, mister Grush, and so I want to get down to if we can some specifics, right. So, UM, at one point you had said that they're they're they're they're has been harmful activity or aggressive activity? Has any of the activity been aggressive been hostile? That in your reports? I know of multiple colleagues of mine that got physically injured, and the activity and buy buy UAPs or by by people within the federal government both. Okay, So there has been activity by by alien or non human technology and or beings that has caused harm to humans. I can't get into the specifics in an open environment, but at least the activity that I personally witnessed, and not to be very careful here because you don't you know, they tell you never to acknowledge tradecraft, right, So what I personally witnessed myself and my wife was very disturbing. Okay. Um, one of my constituents actually sent this next question, and I've figured I had to ask it since I had the same thought. You've said that the US has intact spacecraft. You said that the government has alien bodies or alien species. Have you seen have you seen the spacecraft? I have to be careful to describe what I've seen firsthand and not in this environment, but I could answer that question behind hind closed doors here. And have you seen any of the bodies. That's something I've I've not a witnessed myself. Okay. And so with that being said, you know, and the other other statement that has been made that was intriguing to me because and it's intriguing because my view has been that we are billions of light years away from any any other system. And the concept that an alien species is technologically advanced enough to travel billions of light years gets here and somehow is incompetent enough to not survive Earth or crashes is is something that I find a little bit far fetched. And with that being said, you have mentioned that there's interdimensional potential. Could you expound on that. I'll have to answer your first question, and you know, I'm here as a fact witness, an expert, but I will give you a theoretical framework at least to work off to kind of expouse crashes regardless of you know, your level of sentience, right, you know, planes crash, cars crash, and number of sorties, however high a small percentage, you're going to end and you know, mission failure for will as we say in the Air Force. And then in terms of multidimensionality that kind of thing. The framework that I'm familiar with, for example, is something called the holographic principle. Both it it derives itself from general relativity and quantum mechanics and that is if you want to imagine three D objects such as self casting a shadow onto a two D surface, that's the holographic principle. So you can be projected quasi projected from higher dimensional space to lower dimensional It's a scientific trope that you can actually cross literally as far as I understand. But there's probably guys a PhDs that we could probably argue about that. But you have not seen any documentation that that's what's occurring, only a theoretical framework discussion. Okay, okay, Okam's razor is that this these aircraft, have they been identified, that they are being produced by by domestic you know, military and contractors. Is there any evidence that that's what's being recovered not to my knowledge. Plus, the recoveries predate a lot of our advanced programs that I previously am witting of. So would it be safe to say that there could be scenario today where you have a craft that crashes and because it's been involved in one program from one federal agency and the but the agency that retrieves it is not aware of that program, and to them it appears alien in origin. I mean, that's a hypothetical situation. I'm not aware of any historical situation that would match that that you've described, So you're not aware it has not happened that you're aware of that I'm aware of. Thank you, Miss Truman at your back. Several months ago, my office received a protected disclosure from Eglin Air Force Base indicating that there was an UAP incident that required my attention. I saught a briefing regarding that episode and brought with me Congressman Burchett and Congresswoman Luna. We asked to see any of the evidence that had been taken by flight crew in this endeavor, and to observe any radar signature, as long as well as to meet with the flight crew. We were not afforded access to all of the flight crew, and initially we were not afforded access to images and to radar. Thereafter, we had a bit of a discussion about how authorities flow in the United States of America, and we did see the image, and we did meet with one member of the flight crew who took the image. The image was of something that I am not able to attach to any human capability, either from the United States or from any of our adversaries. And I'm somewhat informed on the matter, having served on the Armed Services Committee for seven years, having served on the committee that oversees DARPA and Advanced Technologies for several years. When we spoke with the flight crew, and when he showed us the photo that he'd taken, I asked why the video wasn't engaged, why we didn't have a Flear system that worked. Here's what he said. They were out on a test mission that day over the Gulf of Mexico, and when you're on a test mission, you're supposed to have clear airspace, not supposed to be anything that shows up. And they saw a sequence of four craft in a clear diamond formation for which there is a radar sequence that I and I alone have observed in the United States Congress. One of the pilots goes to check out that diamond formation and sees a large floating what I can only describe as an orb again, like I said, not of any human capability that I'm aware of. And when he approached, he said that his radar went down. He said that his Flear system malfunctioned and that he had to manually take this image from one of the lenses, and it was not automatic automated in collection as you would typically see in a test mission. So I guess I'll start with Commander Favor. How should we think about the fact that this craft that was approached by our pilot had the capability of disarming a number of the sensor and collection systems on that craft. Well, I think this goes to that national security side, and you can go back through a history of things showing up at certain areas and disabling our capabilities, which is disheartening and for us. I mean, like I said, it completely disabled the radar and aircraft when I try to do it. And the only way we could see it as passively, which is how he got that image. So I think that's a concern on what are these doing, not only how do they operate, but their capabilities inside to do things like this? And how should we think about four craft moving in a very clear formation, equidistant from one another in a diamond in all of the phenomenon, perhaps, mister Grave, that you've analyzed, have we ever seen multiple craft in a single formation. I have one particular case, and that was during the gimbal itsn't it? The recording on the at flear system shows a single object that rotates. You hear the pilots refer to a fleet of objects that is not visible on the fleaar system, and that was something that I witnessed during the debrief as part of the radar data on the situational Awareness page. I would like to add, whoever, Congressman, there's a small bit of anger, I would say, I would feel that those pilots are still facing that difficulty in reporting this topic and they don't have the tools to be able to mitigate this issue. It just goes to show how serious this is and why this is such an important issue for our pilots and for our nation. It was stated explicitly to me by these test pilots that if you have a AP experience, the best thing you can do for your career is forget it and not tell anyone, because any type of reporting, either above the surface or below the surface, does have a perceived consequence to these people, and that is a culture we must change if we want to get to the truth. A Miss Chairman, I would observe that perhaps as we as we move forward from this hearing, there are some obvious next steps. Every person watching this knows that we need to meet with mister Grush and a secure, compartmentalized facility so that we can get fulsome answers that do not put him in jeopardy and that give us the information we need. Second, I would suggest that the radar images that were collected of this formation of craft out of Eglin Air Force Base, and specifically the actual image taken by the actual flight crew that we can actually validate, be provided to the Committee subpoena if necessary, so that we're able to track how to get this type of reporting and analysis done in a more fulesome way. That would be my recommendation. Humbly, as a guest here of the Fine Oversight Committee, I yield back Miss Mace, Thank you, mister Chairman, and good morning to our witnesses who are testifying today. I want to thank each of you for being here to discuss a topic of grave importance to our national security. Earlier this year, a Chinese spy balloon was shot down off the coast of my home state of South Carolina. Since the Roswell incident in nineteen forty seven, many Americans have wondered about the dangers of unknown objects criss crossing our skies, whether these are UAPs, or whether from phenomena advanced technology from American, allied or enemy forces, or something more out of this world. So my first question, I have several questions, and i'll if we can just be quick on these first two. I'm gonna ask each of you the same question, and then i'll get teach of you individually. The first one, when you reported your experiences with a UAP, did interview faced any repercussions with your superiors? Yes? Or no? No, No, I've actually never seen anything personally believe or not? All right? And then do you believe there's an active disinformation campaign within our government to deny existence of UAPs? Yes? Or no? I don't have an answer to that, as previously stating publicly yes, I think previously with like Project Bluebook, yes, but currently I don't speak for the United States government. Okay, thank you. I have a few questions from mister Graves. What percentage of up sightings and your belief go unreported by our pilots. This is an approximation based off of my personal experience speaking with a number of pilots, but I would estimate we're somewhere near five percent reporting, perhaps so ninety five basically, don't report seeing UAPs. That's just my personal estimate. In the incident off Virginior Beach. Do you believe the Navy took the danger to your aircraft seriously after it was reported? Absolutely? A few questions from mister Faber as an expert naval aviator, have you ever seen an object that looked and moved like the TIC TAC UAP? No? Did the TIC TAC UAP move in such a way that defied the laws of physics the way we understand them. Yes, many dismissed UAP reports as classified weapons testing by our own government. But in your experience as a pilot, does our government typically test advanced weapons systems right next to multimillion dollar jets without informing our pilots. No, we have test ranges for that. It took over fifteen years for your encounter with the TIC tac to be declassified. Do you feel there was a good reason to prevent lawmakers from having access to this footage? No? I just think it was ignored. When would happened and it just sat somewhere in a file, never got reported? It endore It happens a lot up here. Shocker, mister gresh A couple of questions for you too, sir, this morning. What percentage of UAPs do you feel are adequately investigated by the US government? Of the five percent of that I reported, I can only speak for my personal leadership over at NGA. I tried to look at every report that came through that I could triage. So believe that officials at the highest levels of our national security apparatus have unlawfully withheld information from Congress and subverted our oversight authority. There are certain elected leaders that had more information that I'm not sure what they've shared with certain Gang of Eight members or etc. But certainly I would not be surprised. Okay, you've stated that the government is in possession of potentially non human spacecraft based on your experience and extensive conversations with experts, do you believe our government has made contact with intelligent extraterrestrials something I can't discuss in public setting. Okay, I can't ask when you think this occurred. If you believe we have crashed craft stated earlier, do we have the bodies of the pilots who piloted this craft? As I've stated publicly already in my News Nation interview. Of biologics came with some of these recoveries, were they I guess human or non human? Biologics? Non human? And that was the assessment of people which recknowledge on the program I talk to that are currently still on the program. And was this documentary everences, video photos, eyewitness like, how would that be determined? The specific documentation I would have to talk to you in a skiff about. Okay, so, and you may or may not be able to answer my last question, and maybe we get into a skiff at the next hearing that we have. But who in the government, either what agency, subagency, what contractors? Who should be called into the next hearing about UAPs, either in a public setting or even in a private setting. And you probably can't name names, But what agencies or organizations, contractors, etc. Do we need to call in to get these questions answered, whether it's about funding, what programs are happening, and what's out there? I can give you a specific cooperative and hostile witness list of specific individual rules that we're in those and how soon can we get that list? I'm happy to provide that to you after the hearing. Super thank you, and I yield back. Okay, now we heah, mister Langworthy's here. Okay, thank you very much. I'd like to thank all of the witnesses for being here today to discuss this very unique topic. And I'd like to jump right into my questions if you don't mind. Commander Fraver, can you briefly describe your background? Yeah, I was an enlisted Marine Naval Academy graduate, Navy flew for eighteen years, got a masters from University Houston, and I've worked in the private sector for the last what now, nineteen sixteen years, seventeen years. I do a lot of defense work, so really gold plated credentials. Commander Fraver, Have we have all seen the floating tic TAC video that you engage with on November fourteenth, two thousand and four. Can you briefly talk about why you were off the coast of San Diego that day? Yeah, we were at a work up with all the battle groups. So we integrate the ships with the carrier or the airwing with the carrier, and we start working. So we're doing an eritor defense to hone not only our skills but those of the USS Princeton when they had been tracking them for two weeks The problem was that there was never manned aircraft airborne when they were tracking them, and this was the first day, and unfortunately we were the ones airborne and went and saw it. Do you remember the weather that day or was it cloudy or windy or anything out of the ordinary on the Pacific coast? It was actually, if you familiar with San Diego, was a perfect day, light, winds, no white caps, clear skies, not a cloud. It was for flying. It was the best. Now is it true that you saw, in your words a forty foot flying TikTok shaped object? That's correct or for some people that can't know to tik tak is, it's a giant flying propane tank. Fair enough? Did this object come up on radar or interfere with your radar or the USS Princeton. The Princeton tracked it, the Nimitz tracked it, the E two tracked it. We'd never saw it on our radars, Our fire control radars never picked it up. The other airplane that took the video did get it on a radar. As soon as it tried to lock it at jam the radar spit the lock and he's rapidly switched over to the targeting pod, which you can do in the f A team. From what you saw that day and what you've seen on video, did you see any source of propulsion from the flying object, including on any potential thermal scans from your aircraft? No, there's none. There's no ir plume coming out. And Chad who took the video, went through all the EO which is black and white TV and the IR modes and there's no visual signs of propultion. It's just sitting in space at twenty thousand feet. In your career, have you ever seen a propulsion system that creates no thermal exhaust? No? Can you describe how the aircraft maneuvered abruptly, very determined, It knew exactly what it was doing, It was aware of our presence, and it had acceleration rates. I mean it went from zero to matching our speed and no time at all. Now, if the fastest plane on Earth was trying to do these maneuvers that you saw, would it be capable of doing that? No, not even close. And just to confirm, this object had no wings? Correct? No wings? Now was the aircraft that you were flying? Was it armed? No? One never felt threatened at all. If the aircraft was armed. You believe that your aircraft or any aircraft in possession of the United States could have shot the tic tac down? I'd say no. Just on the performance it were just left in a split second, it looks like that we have a problem here that needs further investigation. Yes, in your belief? Is this this flying tik tak? I mean, is it capable of being the product of any other nation on the Earth? No? Actually, I said like I said earlier, I think it defies current material science and the ability to develop that much propulsion. And I know there's been some physicism of them calculations which is beyond anything that we have. Well, either the United States has an adversary here in this world that we don't know, or we really have some serious investigations to do. I really appreciate you being here. Is there anything else about the November fourteenth, two thousand and four incident that you think is important for this committee to know? That you haven't been asked here today. No, I you know it's been said it's probably the most credible UFO sighting in history, based on all the sensors that we're tracking it. And then for us to get visual and to go against the naysayers it's something on the screen or whatever. I mean, there's four sets of human eyeballs. We're all very credible. Of the six of us that were involved in the thing, including the video, every one of us is going to do any plus years in the military in very responsible positions. I'd say the world needs to know that it's not a joke. Thank you very much for your testimony here today for all of you, and I yield back mister Chairman as drugs. Thank you, mister Chairman, and thank you all for being here and the courage it took to come forward, and again the sacrifice that he have made. I serve on the National Security subcommittee for the Financial Services Committee, so I really want to stay in the national security lane, if I may. So. When we think about traditional adversaries and both us towards them and them towards us, you know, we probe their capabilities, we look for weaknesses, and we collect that data that reconnaissance for in the event we need it in the future. For each of you, yes or no question, based off of your own experience or the data that you've been privy to, is there any indication that these UAPs could be a collecting reconnaissance information, mister Graves, Yes, mister Grush, fair assessment, mister Fraver, very possible. Again in the national security vein, is it possible that these ups would be probing our capabilities? Yes or no, mister Graves, Yes, Rush, Yes, Fraver, definitely. Is it possible that these UAPs are testing for vulnerabilities in our current systems? Yes, yes, possible. Do you feel, based off of your experience of the information that you've been privy to, that these you pay UAPs provide an existential threat to the national security of the United States? Mister Graves, potentially, yes or potentially same answer. Potentially yea, I'd say definitely potentially, mister Graves and Fraver. You know, in the event that your encounters have become hostile, would you have would would you have had the capability to defend yourself, your crew, your aircraft? Absolutely not, sir, No. Is based off of the information that you've been privy too. Is there any indication that these UAPs are interested in our nuclear technology and capabilities? Yes, by external observation, sure, if that could be a fair assessment, yeah, yes. Is there any indication the Department of Energy is involved in UAP data collection and housing. I don't have an answer. I can't confirm or deny that in public setting, and could you do it in a secure setting? Yes, for sure, favor No, I don't know, mister Chairman. You know I think I'm the last member to go. But there clearly is a threat to the national security of the United States of America. As members of Congress, we have a responsibility to maintain oversight and be aware of these activities so that, if appropriate, we take action. I would encourage the Chairman to demand that we have any and all but in particular, mister Grush talk to us in a skiff, and if that access is denied, I will personally volunteer to initiate the home and rule against any personnel or any program or any agency that denies access to Congress, Mister Chairman. With that, I will yield the remainder of my time to my fellow colleague from Tennessee, mister Bircherd, thank you as Chairman. Thank you mister Ruggles for the great questions. Brother, mister Grush, I might have asked this before, but I want to make sure do you have any personal knowledge of someone who's possibly been injured working on legacy UAP reverse engineering? Yes, okay, how are they injured? Was it? Is it something like a radioactive types of situation or something we didn't understand. I've heard people talk about Havana syndrome type incidents. Is what was your recollection of that? I can't get in the specifics, but you could imagine assessing an unknown unknown there's a lot of potentialities you can't fully prepare for. How do you think we ought to handle you AP whistleblow or complaints like years in the future. Yeah, there was some issue with mind so you know PPD nineteen process. It goes to the Intel committees either through PPD nineteen or i CD one twenty. There's not a good way for the Intelligence Community inspector General to provide that to other committees. And I asked my information to be sent to the House and Senate Armed Services Committee because there are Title ten equities at play, but there was no smooth process to do so, Yeah, it's a trash can Are you aware of any individuals that are participating in reverse engineering programs for non terrestrial craft personally? Yes? Do you know anything that would be willing to testify if there were protections for them, certainly closed door and assurances breaking their NDA they're not going to get administratively punished for So yeah, are yields? Sure? Thank you. Um. I'm gonna do something a little bit out of the ordinary here. We're going to give three people a chance at additional three minutes. So mister Burcha, Joanna keep going. Why don't you come back to me, miss chairman, Miss Lona if she is on the issue on that list, sure, Chairman. I'd like to submit for the record an article by News Nation and it follows mister Grush's full interview for the record without objection. Thank you, mister Grush. Why is it that you referred to the phenomenon as non human intelligence? Why do you from the basis of extraterrestrial life? I think the phenomenon is very complex and I like to leave an open mind analytically to specific origin. When you say specific origin are your can you elaborate on that for those of my if it's a traditional extraterrestrial origin or something else that we don't quite understand from either biological or astrophysics perspective, you know, just like the keep an open mind on what it could be. Yeah, okay, And referring to your News Nation interview, you had referenced specific treaties between governments. Article three of the Nuclear Arms Treaty with Russia identify as uapiece It specifically mentions them to your knowledge, are there safety measures in place with foreign governments or other superpowers to avoid an escalatory situation in the event that a malevolent event occurs? Yeah, you're referring to actual a public treaty in the U N Register. It's funny you mentioned that the Agreement on Measures to Reduce the Risk of Outbreak a Nuclear War sign in nineteen seventy one unclassified treaty publicly available, and if you cite the George Washington University National Security Archives, you will find the declassified in twenty thirteen specific provisions in the specific red line flash message traffic with the specific codes pursuant to Article three. An article also situation two, which is in the previously classified NSA archive. What I would recommend, and I tried to get access, but I got a wall of silence at the White House, was those specific incidents when those message traffic was used. I think some scholarship on that would open the door to a further investigation using those publicly available information. Thank you. And then my last question, with fifty one seconds remaining, you mentioned white collar crimes potentially being taking place in regards to a cover up. Can you please elaborate. I have concerns, based on the interviews I conducted under my official duties, of potential violations of the Federal Acquisition regulations the far Thank you very much. Cha'm gonna yield the remainder of my time. Okay, we'll go to mister Raskin for three minutes. Thanks mister share. I thank the witnesses for their endurance and service today. Mister Fraber, you've described your episode in detail now and you call it the most credible uf UFO siting in history. I wonder was this the first time that you encountered a UFO or a uaping in two thousand and four, yes, And what was your general attitude or perspective on the UFO discussion before that happened. I never felt that we were alone with all the planets out there. But I wasn't a UFO person. I I wasn't watching History Channel and movef on and all that and have you had experiences or encounter since that happened. No, And so have you formed any general conclusions about what you think you experienced then yes, I think what we experienced was, like I said, well beyond the material science and the capabilities that we had at the time that we have currently or that we're going to have in the next ten to twenty years. Very good, mister Greshum. You've been able to answer in great detail on certain questions and then other things you say you're not able to respond to. Can you just explain where you're drawing the line and what's the basis for that. Yeah, based on my dopts or security review in what they've determined that is unclassified. I see. So you're answering any questions that just call upon your knowledge of unclassified questions, but anything that relates to classified matters you're not commenting on in this context in an open session, but happy to participate in a close session at the right level. Yeah. Okay. And mister Graves, you've said that there are dozens of fellow pilots military pilots. Are there also commercial pilots who've encountered the same kind of sightings that you described before? They are similar pilots. Commercial pilots have less range and less censors to be able to reach out and look for objects over wide swass of airspace, and so pilots are seeing commercial pilots are seen them, and they're typically closer, and the range of what they're seeing is is pretty large. What is the most vivid concrete sighting with the naked eye of the objects that you described before? The cube like objects? Certainly, I think the most vivid sighting of that would have been near a near midair that we had at the entrance to our working area. One of these objects was completely stationary at the exact entrance to our working areas, not only geographically but also at altitude, so it was right where all the jets are going, essentially on the Eastern seaboard. The two aircraft flew within about fifty feet of the object, and that was a very close visual sighting. And you were in one of the aircraft. I was not. I was there when the pilot landed he canceled the mission. After I was there, he was in the reading room with all his gear on, with his mouth open, and I asked him what the problem was, and he said he always hit one of those darned things. He said he was fifty feet away from it. Yes, sir, and his description of the object was consistent with the description you gave us before. A dark gray or a black cube inside of a clear sphere, inside of a clear sphere, and with no self evident propulsion system, no wings, no iron energy coming off of the vehicle, nothing tethering it to the ground. And that was that was primarily what we were experiencing out there. I'm over time. Thank you very much for your service, and then you go back to mister Chaman. Very good, mister Burchett, thank you, mister chairman. This is for all three of y'all, starting with mister Grade. Why did you come forward on this issue? I came forward because I felt that my colleagues did not have a way to mitigate the safety threat, and I wanted to help them. I was trained as an aviation safety officer by the Navy, and this seemed it just felt right. I felt like I had to help the folks that were still flying and dealing with this, mister Grash, purely a sense of duty. My first swore oath when I was a cadet eighteen years ago. And I still pulled that even out of the uniform commander. I was pestered by a friend and I asked why, and he said, you're the one person that they can't discredit, and you'll add credibility to the New York Times article. And so after about six times, I said, Okay, yeah, this town isn't made unfortunately by people like y'all. We thank you. And I do want to also thank the people in the audience and people that are watching this that can't be people all over the world that have kept this issue alive. You've endured criticism and derogatory remarks and we're trying to get to the bottom of it. And so God bless y'all. Thank y'all so much. We really appreciate you, guys and gals. That's why we need term limits. Y'all keep clapping us politicians, just keep talking. So let me ask you all, how can't with the public contribute to UAP reporting and what avenues should think are available to the public to report these sightings right now? I don't think there is a lot of public options for the every man to be able to report on this. I think even for professionals that have sensor data that are seeing these on a regular basis, they're still hesitant to come forward. And so for the general public, I think encouraging the conversations that we're having today looking for technology solutions that can be distributed so the objective data can be gathered is the first place to go. Mister Grash, I'll just touch on the whistleblower sign of it. I do encourage, you know, current former military intelligence community and industry contractors to come forward in a legal way, either through the icy or duty or whatever. The cognizant igs are um to lead, you know, lead you join me in this discussion, Commander. And I guess I should say this for the record. My daddy was United States Marine Corps first Marine Divasion. So yes, sir, he was old school him and CHESTI puller on palal loose, So thank you. Wow. Yes, I'm not I'm not anything like my daddy. He was incredible. I'm very mediocre to say the least, but go ahead. He seemed to be doing fine. Man for me. Uh, you know, I was an accident investigator. So the biggest thing they learned, and I think that witnesses neither to do, is one don't try and make the fish bigger than it was. To the facts. Write it down and don't speculate what you think it is because of all school your decision. Just write the facts down. We can get all the facts together and we can start to investigate and get a real honest story instead of it was this big. Thank you all, and I want to thank everybody we might hear history of to day. Mister Chairman, I yield, thank you much, mister Garcia. Think. I know now we're going to be making some closing remarks and so I just want us to say a few things first to our witnesses. I want to thank all of you for being here with us today. I know that it takes a lot a lot of courage. You are telling really important information to this committee, and I just want to thank you also for your all three of you your service to our country. I also want to just note that today's hearing was both important but also serious, and I want to thank our subcommittee chairman, mister Groffman, I think, for running a very fair and substance hearing. I do want to thank the committee staff on both sides for the amount of work that I took to put this hearing in place, and certainly to all the members that have been involved in this issue to prior to the hearing. I also want to note for our witnesses and for the public that I'm a freshman member of Congress and I've only been here for seven months, but this is by far the most bipartisan conversation and discussion that I have seen happen in the Congress. And I think that a topic of this significance as it relates to our national security, as it relates to information that we're trying to gather for the for the for the American public, does bring people together, and I think that's been really great to see. I think it's also important to note for the public we today in our hearing we had on our side also both our full ranking member, which is mister Raskin, and our vice ranking member, which is Miss Acasto Cortez, both here and our hearing. I think it shows the importance and seriousness that our side of the aisle is taking to this important hearing, but also the broader issue as it relates to working with our Republican counterparts on this committee. I want to additionally add that I think and I encourage. I think it's really important that we have and continue these discussions and these hearings. Clearly, there's a lot of information that we don't know, but it's also very clear that we have to continue our investigation and accountability on asking the right questions and ensuring that they're part of the public record. One thing that is important today is some folks might wonder why are we asking questions that might already be out there or that have been asked before. It's important that they're asked and put into the public record as it relates to this committee. And so I want to thank you for answering some questions multiple times, I know, not just in maybe meetings you had with some members, but also here in the public. Let me also just add an additional note that it's important also that our friends in the media and those that are not just reporting on this hearing, but that report on this topic and that may in the future. The media has an important role in this process, and it's very important that the media engages does independent investigation and reports on not just what happened today, but what they what they see independently as what's happening with around UAPs in the broader community. That is also an important um public benefit that we have in trying to get the information and the facts as it relates to this. Let me also just say finally that as a as a teacher and an educator a long time a long time teacher and researcher, UM, that I also really believe in following facts in doing your homework. And I'm making sure that you follow science us as we try to get the most information as possible. And so I want to thank you all for for agreeing to do that today. Transparency is a cornersoner of government. We live in in a vast galaxy, a lot of unanswered questions. And thank you all for being here today, mister chairman, thank you. UM, I like to one more time thank mister urchins La for bringing this to our attention. It's a topic that has interested me since I was in school. It was a very illuminating hearing. Obviously, I think several of us are going to look forward to getting some answers in a more confidential setting. I assume some legislation will come out of this. Sure, I Apologizement's chairman. I need to complement the folks in my office that did a lot of the work on this Rightchel and know us sitting behind me here. They're very quiet and humble, but if without them this thing would not have come off like it did. So I apologize, thank you. I think we're gonna want to look into what we can do to make more of this information public. I think there's certainly a time period after which it should always be made public, and people have been concerned about these issues, like I said, since I was in high school. But in any event, like to thank everybody who was here sticking through the tire hearing without objection. The members will have five legislative days to submit materials and to submit additional written questions for the witness witnesses, which we affward to the witnesses for their response. If there's no further business about objection, the subcommittee stands abjourned. I hope you enjoyed tonight's episode, and remember that if you'd like to submit your experience or learn more about supporting what I do, you can find all of my contact and support information at Paranormal Mysteries podcast dot com, as well as in the show notes. Until next time, thank you again for listening, and I look forward to having you back as we continue our journey into the unexplained right here on Paranormal Mysteries and